A "use case" for DIY (or not)...

[fu11m00n]

DIY? Hmmm...

Every year social media influencers talk about the year of the Linux destop.
And every year the greatest hurdle to that is the critque that DIY (aka... "RTFM") is to blame.

Toxic mystification of the Linux ecosystem is the primary reason that
adoption (outside of smart phones and servers) will never be a thing.

Linux is fragmented and MacOS and Windows is not... because of the (customization) learning curve.

The greatest (and most accurate) accusation against Linux is... "Linux is free if you don't value your time".
When the price of entry is too high people vote with their feet. Linus himself has admitted this.

There are different end users so you will have different use cases. Therein lies the problem.

Not every user wants to compile their system ("Gentoo").
Or... build their system ("Linux From Scratch").
Or... compile their configuration ("Suckless").

Some users prefer a complete although bloated solution ("AppImage" or "Flatpack" or "Snaps").
Or... 3rd party repos ("AUR")
Or... build systems ("Slackbuilds").

And finally... some users like me (that don't have a "team") prefer "pay to play" (code bounty).
I'm mostly interested in code mercs from the global south.

Linux... Windoze and MacOS are black boxes. But @ least Windoze and MacOS is "honest" about it.

Here's the bottom line... IMHO there are NO bad end users (unless they are "tribal", "snarky", "salty", and/or "toxic" DIY/RTFM trolls) only correct use cases.

I created my OS ("the fu11m00n project") to the spare users (both n00bs and advanced) the INFERNAL learning curve that I still struggle with.

I'm not the only one that feels this way... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ma8UoQrKFw

[vinnie]

When everything is left up to the community, it’s clear that things only work when someone puts in the effort to make them work.
There are so many things that would be very useful, but there’s no one who can dedicate his time to them.
However, when this happens, the software is generally better because it doesn’t have to compromise with market demands.

My experience is that when things work, the system is marvel (for example, Nemesis is so convenient that I can’t imagine going back to a non-modular distribution).
When things don’t work, it’s a double-edged sword.
On the one hand, this happens more often due to the fragmentation you mentioned (for example, if you want to run Docker on Nemesis but can't because it would require specific work to adapt it); however, on average, it’s more likely that there’s a solution to a problem that arises on Linux than on Windows or Mac

When we emulate Windows software on Linux, we usually want to use software that isn't available on Linux; when people emulate Linux on Windows, usually they want to compensate for weaknesses in the operating system.

So what would really improve Linux would be better community management to get new versions of Nemesis more frequently

[fu11m00n]

@ vinnie... thanks.

no one who can dedicate his time to them

...sometimes.

compromise with market demands

...bounty's don't have "markets" or "demands" (only customers or lack of them).

[SEMERENDO.cr]

Porteus is wonderful; what you're saying is laughable, because the best analogy would be to say, basically, that
Porteus is an operating system in AppImage format.

My only complaint is that the ISO is getting way too big...

I think Microsoft, unlike Android, which releases a new version every year with ZERO INNOVATION, other than making phones obsolete;
Microsoft does stay relevant for several years even without updating the operating system.

In that respect, Slackware is also fabulous, an OS that updates every 8 years; that's how they work at NASA.

In practice, the agency prioritizes a known and stable ecosystem over pursuing the latest model on the market.
https://mundowin.com/en/Artemis-II-and- ... -the-moon/

[fu11m00n]

@ SEMERENDO.cr... thanks.

what you're saying is laughable

Mockery (Appeal to ridicule) is not perspective. Citation is perspective. I am offering citation not emotion.
Read the... List of fallacies to understand my view of your reasoning.

Sorry to disappoint you... but my critique is not "tribal" (cultism is yet another Linux flaw).
Porteus? My contributions to Porteus (for over a decade) are numerous (and unsung).

You are reading the wrong tea leaves.

To adopt something is not a panacea.
Just like everything in life... you will get "the good... the bad and the ugly".
This thread is NOT about the good.

My perspective is not that of a n00b.
I am a 20yr Slackware user... 13yr developer... 6yr maintainer.
And that was after 20yrs of DOS/Windows as a power user and CompTIA technician.

Porteus is Slax. Slax is Slackware. Slackware is SLS. SLS is... Linux.


So you are not aware of this?

When you embrace Porteus you become part of a bigger community.

You should reread the 1st post.
I don't think you understand the narrative.
And watch the video @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ma8UoQrKFw

You are making assumptions (Cherry picking) by embracing
"elementary school" (dictionary/grammar) see... Denotation
instead of "academia" (encyclopedia/essay) see... Connotation

[SEMERENDO.cr]

Dude, stop rambling... you contradict yourself time and time again.

In short, you're one of those developers who fill operating systems with gigabytes of data while the hardware itself is now mini-sized.

Adopting something is indeed the solution to problems... Microsoft, for example, now has an online Office suite that's free; that used to be the argument against using Linux. Furthermore, they managed to kill off "the competition," Google.

[fu11m00n]

@ SEMERENDO.cr... thanks.

In short, you're one of those developers who fill operating systems with gigabytes of data while the hardware itself is now mini-sized.

Quite the contrary, my ethos comes from books like...
The Mythical Man-Month and The Cathedral and the Bazaar

And projects like... Linux from Scratch... Musl and BusyBox
And "suckless.org"... https://suckless.org/philosophy/

Check out my project site... @ https://oreivd96v420wee4.umso.co/
My OS iso size is about 1.5gb. @ boot it uses <15% of 4gb memory.

It's still is comparable in iso size to Alienbob's Slackware live iso build.

Although it uses the Porteus live iso format (and scripts) it is based on Linux From Scratch
(with a full minimal Slackware install plus deps... X11... full API and toolchain).

I see the primary cause of bloat being the GNU circular Dependency hell ecosystem which my project is a rejection of.

Adopting something is indeed the solution to problems

You are missing the point... (Irrelevant conclusion).
Read the... List of fallacies to understand my view of your reasoning.

Again... to adopt something is not a panacea.
I am referring in particular to the adoption of Linux.
Just because you like something does NOT mean it is infallible.
Just like everything in life... you will get "the good... the bad and the ugly".

Again... this thread is NOT about the good.
It seems your commentary expects positive posts on a negative thread.
This section of the forum is for negative threads.
The other section is for... "cheerleading" (aka... "tribalism").
IMO... "cheerleading" in this section is the epitome of contradiction.

Over the years the best dialogue in this section occured when questions were asked like...
"What do you mean" or "what would you do differently"?
Those kind of questions open up a discussion instead of a debate.
These are the kind of questions that... Brokenman (the maintainer) would ask.

Let's unpack what I'm trying to say to you.
It appears you are confusing "critique" with "attack".
This thread does not attack Linux (which includes Porteus)... it raises questions about it.
It appears you are defending an imaginary attack.

Your "tribal" defensiveness proves the point of this thread.
Things like "tribalism" hinder... "The Year of the Linux Desktop" because it scares the n00bs off.
Linux ecosystem drama is NOT a selling point for widespread adoption.
Widespread desktop adoption currently stands @ < 6% (if you don't include ChromeOS).

Dude, stop rambling

Mockery (Appeal to ridicule) is not perspective. Citation is perspective. I am offering citation not emotion.
Read the... List of fallacies to understand my view of your reasoning.

Again... you should reread the 1st post.
I don't think you understand the narrative.
And watch the video @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ma8UoQrKFw

[SEMERENDO.cr]

Look, your line of reasoning really shows some personality disorder.

I have a nephew who, since he was 4 years old, back in 2010, would turn on my computer > Ubuntu 8.04 > Open Firefox > Visit the bookmark in the toolbar > Play online with Flash Player.

He never had any problems... I had adopted Ubuntu, but then I tried Debian Squeeze(2011) and stuck with it until I had to change computers in 2018, and getting an Ethernet connection was a bit of a hassle.

The switch from GTK2 to GTK3 broke a lot of things, but with a virtual machine, it meant staying up-to-date on my Jet computer.

There are situations that force us to change, and that's what happens to everyone who uses Windows or loser Apple users; They need to buy another identical computer.

[fu11m00n]

@ SEMERENDO.cr... thanks.

Look, your line of reasoning really shows some personality disorder

Mockery (Appeal to ridicule) is not perspective. Citation is perspective. I am offering citation not emotion.
Read the... List of fallacies to understand my view of your reasoning.

It appears you are confusing "critique" with "attack".
This thread does not attack Linux (which includes Porteus)... it raises questions about it.
It appears you are defending an imaginary attack.

Your salty "tribal" defensiveness proves the point of this thread.
Things like "tribalism" hinder... "The Year of the Linux Desktop" because it scares the n00bs off.
Linux ecosystem drama is NOT a selling point for widespread adoption.
Widespread desktop adoption currently stands @ < 6% (if you don't include ChromeOS).

I have a nephew who, since he was 4 years old...

Ok. Now we have a discussion. Point taken and I fully agree with you (although your point is not the point of this thread).

Again... you should reread the 1st post.
I don't think you understand the narrative.
And watch the video @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ma8UoQrKFw

I could be wrong... but I have a feeling you did not watch the video (or reread the 1st post) which explains why you are missing the point.

[SEMERENDO.cr]

Hey dude, honestly don't know which sensationalist news sites you frequent.

FIRST. You're the one being mocking with "the year of the Linux desktop."
SECOND. All that idiotic news is outdated, just like those days when they gave away Ubuntu CDs and public universities delivered them to your home.

THIRD. Porteus isn't yet an operating system designed to replace all Windows/Mac/Chrome users; it lacks something user-friendly like a "software center," although let's not forget that the boot menu isn't something people are used to, nor is GRUB—that's what Plymouth is for.

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/Plymouth/

[fu11m00n]

@ SEMERENDO.cr... thanks.

although let's not forget that the boot menu isn't something people are used to, nor is GRUB—that's what Plymouth is for.

Ok. Now we have a discussion. Point taken and I fully agree with you (although your point is not the point of this thread).

FIRST. You're the one being mocking with "the year of the Linux desktop."

The phrase was first popularized over 25yrs ago in talks by prominent figures like... Eric S. Raymond and Linus Torvalds (creator of Linux).
Today it's used frequently by internet influencers and content creators and in numerous Linux forums. The phrase is ubiquitous.

Porteus isn't yet an operating system designed to replace all Windows/Mac/Chrome

Porteus is Slax. Slax is Slackware. Slackware is SLS. SLS is... Linux.


So you are not aware of this?

When you embrace Porteus you become part of a bigger community.

Slax and by extension Porteus has not "radically" changed since 2003.
The live Linux modular concept created by Tomas is still alive and well.
My first Linux distro after DSL was Slax in 2005. I was a Slax contributor back then.

Hey dude, honestly don't know which sensationalist news sites you frequent.

Mockery (Appeal to ridicule) is not perspective. Citation is perspective. I am offering citation not emotion.
Read the... List of fallacies to understand my view of your reasoning.

I don't frequent news sites but I do frequent Linux Questions forum where I met Patrick Volkerding (creator of Slackware).

your ridiculous "do-it-yourself" story.

Mockery (Appeal to ridicule) is not perspective. Citation is perspective. I am offering citation not emotion.
Read the... List of fallacies to understand my view of your reasoning.

It appears you are confusing "critique" with "attack".
This thread does not attack Linux (which includes Porteus)... it raises questions about it.
It appears you are defending an imaginary attack.

Your salty "tribal" defensiveness proves the point of this thread.
Things like "tribalism" hinder... "The Year of the Linux Desktop" because it scares the n00bs off.
Linux ecosystem drama is NOT a selling point for widespread adoption.
Widespread desktop adoption currently stands @ < 6% (if you don't include ChromeOS).

Again... you should reread the 1st post.
I don't think you understand the narrative.
And watch the video @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ma8UoQrKFw

[SEMERENDO.cr]

Dude, stop going around in circles; you sound like one of those people who say, "God doesn't exist."

It's funny how you keep contradicting yourself, saying "it's not an attack" but then calling it "DIY," discrediting other people's work.

People don't know this distribution, so they don't even have an opinion based on their user experience. Age has nothing to do with it... altLinux is an older project, the best RPM distribution, but nobody knows about it, and it has everything.

There are two types of users: those who have a computer as decoration (family) and those who need it for work; if it's for work, Linux wins hands down. That being the case, in a company there's a support department, which is the one that's in charge of "fixing" your ridiculous "do-it-yourself" story.

[fu11m00n]

@ SEMERENDO.cr... thanks.

Your goal is debate (competition)... mine is discussion (which is to "understand"... NOT agree) so I guess you will continue to be disappointed.
If you don't understand the 1st post... I can help you. If you don't "want" to understand the 1st post... I cannot help you.

Dude, stop going around in circles; you sound like one of those people who say, "God doesn't exist."

Non-sequitur. You are missing the point of this thread... (Irrelevant conclusion).
Read the... List of fallacies to understand my view of your reasoning.

It's funny how you keep contradicting yourself, saying "it's not an attack" but then calling it "DIY," discrediting other people's work.

Non-sequitur. You are missing the point of this thread... (Irrelevant conclusion).
Read the... List of fallacies to understand my view of your reasoning.

It appears you are confusing a common "critique" (I did not invent it... so watch the video) with "attack".
This thread does not attack Linux (which includes Porteus)... but it raises questions about it.
It appears you are defending an imaginary attack.

Your "tribal" defensiveness proves the point of this thread.
Things like "tribalism" hinder... "The Year of the Linux Desktop" because it scares the n00bs off.
Linux ecosystem drama is NOT a selling point for widespread adoption.

Widespread desktop adoption currently stands @ < 6% (if you don't include ChromeOS).

People don't know this distribution, so they don't even have an opinion based on their user experience.

Non-sequitur. You are missing the point of this thread... (Irrelevant conclusion).
Read the... List of fallacies to understand my view of your reasoning.

There are two types of users

There are different end users so you will have different use cases. Therein lies the problem.

Not every user wants to compile their system ("Gentoo").
Or... build their system ("Linux From Scratch").
Or... compile their configuration ("Suckless").

Some users prefer a complete although bloated solution ("AppImage" or "Flatpack" or "Snaps").
Or... 3rd party repos ("AUR")
Or... build systems ("Slackbuilds").

And finally... some users like me (that don't have a "team") prefer "pay to play" (code bounty).

Linux wins hands down.

Again... to adopt something is not a utopian panacea.
I am referring in particular to the adoption of Linux.
Just because you like something does NOT mean it is infallible.
People like roses but after a week... they putrify.
Just like everything in life... you will get "the good... the bad and the ugly".
Thinking otherwise... is not realistic.

Again... this thread is NOT about the good.
It seems your commentary expects positive posts on a negative thread.
This section of the forum is for negative threads.
The other section (Porteus Lovers) is for... "cheerleading" (aka... "tribalism").
IMO... "cheerleading" in this section is the epitome of contradiction.

Over the years the best dialogue in this section occured when questions were asked like...
"What do you mean" or "what would you do differently"?
Those kind of questions open up a discussion instead of a debate.
These are the kind of questions that... Brokenman (a Porteus maintainer) would ask.

Again... you should reread the 1st post.
I don't think you understand the narrative.
And watch the video @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ma8UoQrKFw